I couldn’t have said it better myself. And don’t EVEN get me started on the campaign by Carl’s Jr, with the woman getting her sloppy burger all over herself while voyeuristic men lose their shit over the image.

But I digress, too.

Men are from Earth, women are from Earth, deal with it!

Oh, Geez, I have totally missed that commercial. Can I get TiVo to record it for me? Sorry, Meera, some men really are from Mars, myself included… And some women are from Venus… Some are from Uranus, I married two of them…

Gee… is NASA aware of this?

Seriously, though, it’s better to work on what bridges the gaps between the sexes than to focus on the spaces between them. That’s the main problem I have with the Mars/Venus thing. Sure, there are tendencies that often are split along gender lines, but itsn’t it more constructive to work together to come to the center, than to say, “I’m from an entirely different planet than you, and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it other than tolerate the differences”?

Hmm. Maybe I should start my own blog instead of littering yours with my “liberal” thinking!

Despite my ‘oneriness, I completely agree with you. When I reference the Mars and Venus thing, I’m thinking about Dr. Gray’s book. I look at the planet analogy as a way to accept that there are fundamental differences in the way our psyches deal with life based on gender. I would never say that ‘it’s just the way it is, deal with it.’ The acceptance of differences gives a foundation to better understand each other, and builds a structure for better communication so we know how to talk to each other. Prime example: my ex-wife used to vent about her day and her work concerns all the way home… the whole hour. I used to offer thoughts on how she could improve things before I realized she didn’t want that. She just wanted to be heard and have me empathize with her. This was foreign to me, but once I accepted it, I realized that she was perfectly happy to vent, and go through it all again the next day. That’s not how my brain works, but it was how hers worked.

Then again, if I really understood how the opposite sex thought, I’d not be a double-divorcee…

By all means, start your own blog! Just don’t stop harassing me with your whacky liberal thoughts! Just wait until Julian joins Young Republicans…

Over. My. Dead. Body.

But seriously, when you say “...there are fundamental differences in the way our psyches deal with life based on gender,” I agree with you, until the last three words. As I said before, sure, there are differences between people, but isn’t it more productive to describe them as differences between people, rather than between genders? Personally, I posses many “male” characteristics, my husband possesses many “female” characteristics, and a construct like Dr. Gray’s has very limited usefulness for us. Granted, there are tendencies that often fall on gender lines. But saying that “Men are like this” and “Women are like that” isn’t helpful. It highlights the space between us, rather than the common ground that we share, which is---in my opinion---more important. Your example of how you dealt with your ex’s daily catharsis is how you learned how to deal with her, not with women. (At least I hope not.)

You say, “The acceptance of differences gives a foundation to better understand each other, and builds a structure for better communication so we know how to talk to each other.” Absolutely. No argument there. It’s the assumption that those differences are based solely on gender that I have trouble with.

It seems to me that you’re raising your daughter really well in teaching her not to subscribe to the gender stereotypes, and that thrills me to pieces. I already admire her! I’m trying to do the same with my son. Dare I say that he is more timid and emotional than Annie? I don’t know. (Then again, his preoccupation with bodily functions is pretty stereotypically on-target for his gender...) But maybe we’re doing something right by raising them to break down these boundaries.

Go us!

RE: Over my dead body - “Julian, I think you’d like this book by Ayn Rand… Just don’t tell your mother where you got it...”

"Oh Annie.... here’s a book by Simone de Beauvoir, and tell your Daddy exactly where you got it. And while you’re at it, tell him he should read it, too!

And while we’re at it, go ahead and read some Arthur Schlesinger, Barbara Ehrenreich, Al Franken, Amy Goodman, Thom Hartmann, Jim Hightower, Molly Ivins, Rachel Maddow, Stephanie Miller, Mike Malloy, Randi Rhodes, Betsy Rosenberg, and Ed Schultz… just to start...”

<i>chuckle

I guess I look at it a little differently (maybe because I’m guy!). I agree that the description given by Gray doesn’t fit everyone all the time. However, assuming a bell curve, it’s accurate more often than not. My first wife and I read the book together, switching off every other night (when we should have been doing other things). I can’t tell you how many times we each stopped and exclaimed, “my God, this is you!” We wouldn’t disagree that there are physical characteristics that differentiate women and men. I don’t have breasts, and you don’t have… well, you aren’t as tall as I… Similarly, our programming is different. Men have higher testerone levels than women, giving rise to higher aggressiveness and a pretty much constant desire for sex. Women have higher levels of estrogen giving rise to a greater ability to handle stress and I don’t know what else (not that kind of doctor).  Hormones are the messengers of the body and play a large role in mood and behavior. Why is it such a stretch that due to chemical differences that we have a tendency to behave differently based on gender? I assure you that there was one week every month with my ex when I would be much more accepting of mood swings and a tendency to be more irritable. After childbirth? Holy cow! These might be extreme cases in time, but don’t they at least demonstrate a behavior tendency based on gender?

"Why is it such a stretch that due to chemical differences that we have a tendency to behave differently based on gender?”

It’s not a stretch at all. Everything you postulate is true. It’s the grand, sweeping statements that say that Men Want Sex All The Time and Women Handle Stress Better and Men Are More Aggressive and Women Are Better Nurturers that I have trouble with.

I can recognize when I’m exhibiting x behavior, and, as a rational, thinking being, I can modify or find ways to deal with my tendencies. For example, I know that I don’t read maps well. I know that this trait is shared by many other women. I don’t think it’s because I’m a woman that I have this problem, though; I think it’s because that part of my brain didn’t develop in a way that finds reading maps easy. Whatever the reason, I have to find a way to cope with that trait. Verbal directions work just as well for me. (I’m a writer, big surprise!)

I mean, really. Do you really want sex all the time? (This is rhetorical. I know your mother reads this blog!) But even if you do, you don’t go around seeking it and being aggressive and doing the things that higher testosterone indicates. You don’t spend your days tearing down buildings with your bare hands and dragging your woman around by the hair.

We are more highly evolved than to say, because I am a man, I am x. I think you are more than just a man, I think you’re a person.  Our programming is different, yes, but we as humans also have this amazing capability to modify our behavior and outlook---not because of our gender, but because of our humanity. I’m not really contradicting your argument, I’m just saying that we can look past the limitations of inherent hormonal differences and find ways to work together. And not through a book by Dr. Gray who says that to score points with your wife, take down phone messages so she can actually read them.

We’re all in this together, and emphasizing the “other"-ness of each other is harmful. Find the common ground, and start from there.

Thank you! I haven’t busted out laughing in a long time. I’ll leave it to you to figure out what part made me do that… You really don’t want me to answer your rhetorical question. Mainly, because it would be the answer that 80% of the male population have… Especially since an ex-girlfriend asked me the same thing… speeding down 280… on Christmas Day… on the way to see Cats at the Orpheum… I’m fairly open, but will stop that line of questioning with her question being, “you seem to like to have sex more often than most people, why is that?” Sorry, mom. I confess that I didn’t have an answer…

We actually seem to have the same thoughts, except for acceptance. I don’t look at it as a failing or a hurdle. I like knowing where to start. If women or men have a predisposition it helps begin the conversation and solution that you are talking about. I have no problem with being put into an expected response. I hope it helps the other person know how to respond accordingly. It helps me formulate a solution and a response that quickly ends in resolution by both parties.

It’s like this, remember, I’m an engineer… My field of engineering is often looked at with a critical eye. If I get called in to ‘fix’ a product, the product team knows it’s going to cost money. I know they think that. They know that I know that they think that… Ok, I’ll stop. When I determine a fix, I give it to them on the basis of cost. I don’t tell them how cool it is that the system is more robust regarding ESD, or that is radiates the environment less and will be less impactful on radios and airplanes. They don’t care, I know what I need to say and how to say it. An expectation and understanding about what is PROBABLY going through the other person’s head helps us discuss the matter quickly and effectively.

If stereotypes help me reach that faster, easier, and more effectively, please describe more stereotypes…

I just don’t see it as a bad thing. You work on product documentation (tech pubs), right? Do you start from scratch with every new ASIC, or do you have a template to start from that lets you build and move foreward quickly and effectively?

Pardon my engineer’s (MAN’S) approach.

By the way, I’m loving this.

Me too! It’s a captive audience!

Yep, I’m in tech pubs. I have to make the human connection between the engineer (YOU) and the person (ME). Not only do I have to understand the technology, but I have to understand the person who is trying to figure out how to use the [system, software, hardware, whatever]. So I have to balance the “male” and “female”. It’s close to my heart!

I think you have hit the nail on the head by comparing it to an engineering scenario. Excellent analogy. I don’t look at relationships or social dynamics as something to get through quickly and to leave things out of consideration because it’s convenient. We can’t just look at one teeny weeny little quadrant of a circuit of the human mind and not know that it’s intimately connected to every other part of that person’s psyche.

BUT. If you’re looking at a particular problem with someone of the other gender and can easily disregard the gender stereotype when something doesn’t fit into the mold, well, then you’re most of the way there. You have to be aware of the stereotypes before you can toss them out the window. The more it happens, the more flexible you become.

And I won’t start talking about Big Manly Ford Trucks and little fuel-efficient Hondas. For your sake. *chuckle*

You’re just jealous that you don’t have an F250 or a Harley to go to work on… Maybe I’ll take Julian to school some day on my bike… He’ll love it.  I can see him walking into class and taking off his leathers…

Runs away screaming

David you are being too specific with your generalizations, and Meera, you are refusing to recognize that trends do in fact help us to establish the colors we select to paint each personal canvas.  Dem in udder werdz is, you are both sorta kinda right.

Men were genetically encoded to spread our genes, procreate and find multiple suitable mates.  It’s just how MOST of us were wired.  Thankfully MOST of us have evolved enough to understand that there are inherent plus-sides to sticking with one mate for life (assuming we don’t screw it up somehow by arguing over semantics on an internet site instead of paying attention to our spouses).

Women are genetically encoded to find mates that were good providers and protectors.  Again, thanks to changing environments, it isn’t so important anymore, and women have evolved (just like men) into the mysterious creatures they are today, with the understanding that no man in the world will ever divine the secret world that is “wimmen-folk.”

There’s a great book on the topic, if you’re looking for a little light reading.  It’s called “The Origin of Species” by Charles Darwin.

Personally, I subscribe to the cheesy lyrics of the geek-rock band Rush, who I believed summed it up best with their hit song “Entre Nous.” I submit a sample of their lyrics to enlighten you to my philosophy of male/female interaction.  Or at least in my caveman mind how I wish to be assessed.

“...Just between us, I think it’s time for us to recognize
The differences we sometimes fear to show.
Just between us, I think it’s time for us to realize
The spaces inbetween leave room for you and I to grow.”

<toke>Groovy.</toke>

Flanders,
I respect your thoughts, but dude, what the heck was that German phrase supposed to mean!? I know I haven’t spoken German in… well, a very long time, but I have no idea what that said!

Hi, Flanders,
Very good points. Another interesting book on the topic (though perhpas not as well known!) is The Red Queen by Matt Ridley. To quote Publishers Weekly:

“Ridley ...  argues that men are polygamous for the obvious reason that whichever gender has to spend the most time and energy creating and rearing offspring tends to avoid extra mating. Women, though far less interested in multiple partners, will commit adultery if stuck with a mediocre mate. In Ridley’s ... conclusion, even human intellect is chalked up to sex: virtuosity, individuality, inventiveness and related traits are what make people sexually attractive.”

It’s an interesting theory. It’s a good read, too. But my point about the differences between men and women is not so much that there ARE no differences---there are, obviously, because we couldn’t have evolved without some differences coming to light---but that we don’t have to be ruled by them. Again, I’ll say that I think we have evolved enough to develop our own personalities, beyond the sex-hungry power-thirsty men and the nurturing child-rearing women.

My friend Mike read this exchange, then he wrote an email to me… he should have written here! But anyway, he said:

He’s missing the point. The ad’s meant to make him feel better. Like, “I’m pretty cluless about flowers…but hey, I’m NOT that clueless, and they helped him, so they’d probably be good to call.”

One of the problems between m and f is the fact that we think in terms of problems between m and f…too much generalization, too much Olduvai Gorge, not enough specifics, not enough San Jose.

First, Mike, I love for people to comment. Knock yourself out. Why wouldn’t you want to call me to the carpet?

Secondly, you have a point. I never looked at it that way. Is it a common marketing perception that men will buy things in a belief that we are better than the people in the advertisement? I know I’m a bit… odd, sometimes, compared to other guys. It comes with the degree. I felt that it was a slam on men in general, and I can’t support that… That’s just me…